Dr. Matt Warnock Interviews Jack Grassel
MATT: Did any of your teachers have an influence on your teaching approach?
JACK: Fortunately I got to play with, learn from and observe fellow teacher, saxophone virtuoso Berkeley Fudge, a fine role model. He would initiate learning by playing something that you needed to hear to teach yourself something you needed. He might just say one sentence that would start you in a better musical direction. I wasn't interested in what was being taught in schools or the way the information was delivered. My teaching approach became based on what I would like to receive as a student. I had a great college theory instructor, Ted Ashford, who wrote on the board the 1st day of class, "You don't have to learn this stuff, but you will have to compete with someone who did." He would come in to class and ask "what do you want to do today?" putting responsibility on the students for the outcome. He was a jazz pianist, with a doctorate from Julliard, who only taught at my school for two years before quitting to join the rock band FOOD in Los Angeles. He had written the required theory book the class used which had every genre of music in it. I was afraid to miss even one class during the entire year. Each class (5 times per week) was unique and mind blowing. Occasionally he would have his trio and other musicians in to be interviewed and give a concert. John Cage was a guest twice. Every Friday, we were required to come to class with music we had composed and perform it. Underage, I would sneak into bars late at night to hear him play creative music with his band. Everyone in that class turned out to be a powerful musical force. I have always used Ted Ashford and Berkeley Fudge as models. I asked Ted "Mr. Ashford, how can I get gigs?" He said, "Jack, go home and practice". I practiced 15 hours a day for six months. Then gigs started to appear and have continued for the last fifty years. I recently went over the 14,000 gig mark.
MATT: How has technology changed the landscape of music education and where do
you see it headed in the future?
JACK: With the current availability of mass instruction, it's more difficult than ever to create your own voice and even find a good teacher. When Frank Zappa auditioned players, he
looked them in the eye and said, "What do you do that's fantastic?" and "What can you do that no one else can do?" When hiring teachers at Milwaukee Area Technical College, I would also ask those questions. Nine out of ten applicants recoiled and couldn't give an answer. Approximately 1 out of 10 applicants confidently answered those questions. Needless to say,
I wound up with an incredible, fully-functioning faculty that turned out extraordinary musicians. Remember that most of the great music influential legends were self-taught. They didn't have the internet, instruction books, DVDs, teachers or music schools: Charlie Parker, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tal Farlow, George Van Eps, Lenny Breau, Johnny Winter, Eddie Van Halen, McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, Roy Haynes, Gary Peacock, Jaco Pastorius, Anthony Williams, Keith Jarrett, Sonny Stitt, Thelonius Monk and Wes Montgomery were self taught musicians. They can play one note, and you know exactly who it is. What degrees do these guys have or what school did they attend? You don't know, don't care and it doesn't matter, it's about the learning music. Actually, everyone is mostly self taught because practicing a musical instrument is a solitary activity without a teacher being present. How well do you practice? Do you practice correctly? Do you advance as a result of your practice? When I was chairman of the MATC music department, my challenging goal was to create "one of a kind" musicians within a school environment. When I hear those students now, I know that I've achieved that goal. They all graduated from the same place, but don't sound like each other or any of their teachers. They sound like themselves. In 1972, early in my carreer, numerous audience members would say, "Jack you sound like Wes Montgomery, or like John McLaughlin or like Pat Martino. I responded by not listening to a single guitar player live or on record for the next ten years, which was how long it took for me to start sounding like myself. Now folks say, "Jack, you don't sound like anyone I've ever heard." I still don't listen to many other guitar players these days. I have worked hard to create my individuality and maintain it.
M: How did you get your start as a teacher?
J: I began to play 2-3 gigs per week on upright bass and bass guitar at 12 years old. To supplement my income, I started teaching bass guitar in a music store at age 14. I made more money teaching than having a paper route which was only employment available to a young teenager. One day the store owner said if I taught guitar, piano and accordion, I could recruit more students. Since I didn't have a guitar he sold me a warped neck Harmony archtop without a truss rod for four dollars that the previous owner had painted glossy orange with a paint brush using "Farm Implement Enamel". Ha Ha. Having never played guitar before, I bought Mel Bay's 8 books and practiced a lot.
M: What is the connection between your publications and how you approach a private lesson?
J: Those books were originally written as things for me to practice. When I began studying the guitar I discovered there wasn't advanced material in print to help me get where I wanted to go as a guitarist. In general, I've found that most guitarists aren't very original. (John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Bill Evans, Thelonius Monk, Jackie McLean, Joe Henderson and Charlie Parker didn't have guitarists on their most influential recordings for a reason ). I've worn out 3 copies of 158 Exercises for Saxophone which is what Coltrane used to practice every day. There aren't many books for advanced guitarists because there is more money in creating books for beginners. Classical clarinet etude books are great things to practice because the clarinet is three octaves just like the guitar and not written for guitar. I created my teaching methods to help myself and others to develop an original musical voice. I found it difficult to develop my own unique style when practicing materials which conveyed and cemented the common weaknesses of guitar technique instead of transcending them. Saxophonist Sam Rivers created & practiced his own exercises so he wouldn't sound like Coltrane. If I teach someone, the approach is unique to that student. I help them create their own practice materials and achieve their own vision so they sound like themselves, not me.
M: How has your teaching experience influenced your performing and vice-versa?
J: In 1994, I was at Tal Farlow's house. I told him how frustrated I was with my playing and that I hadn't improved in a long time. He asked what I did. I replied that I taught 60 guitar students per week. He said, "Jack, you're hearing your instrument played poorly 30 hours a week and you are the product of your environment". Since I was head of the MATC music department at the time, I immediately hired a guitar teacher and stopped teaching guitar. Instead, I taught Music Appreciation class which involved listening to and discussing recordings by the greatest creative musicians who ever lived. I scheduled those classes in a different part of the building so that I never heard anyone play the guitar except me. In addition, I exclusively played my 70 compositions on most gigs. (Wayne Shorter, Thelonius Monk, Jackie McLean and Horace Silver did that.) It didn't take long for my playing to improve. Next, I was working with Melvin Rhyne, who had played with Wes Montgomery. He said to me "Music is everything you do." I learned to better choices that were aligned with my music goals.
M: What advice do you have for people who are just starting to teach guitar?
J: I think you have to have a clear vision of what you want to do with your life. Do you want to be "a musician who teaches guitar" or "a guitar teacher who plays music" or "a music teacher who sort of plays a bunch of instruments". There is a big difference between them. During the years when I taught, I vigilantly maintained my identity as a player who is teaching. It resulted in choices which supported my ultimate playing goals. Teachers who play instruments could be better players AND better teachers if they would turn their thinking around the other way. They would become more inspirational teachers.
M: What advice do you have for students when they are looking for a private teacher?
J: FIRST, you need to know what you want to do. SECOND, locate those who have done and are doing what want to do. THIRD, study with as many of them as you can regardless of the time, cost, location and sacrifice. You can always make more money. I didn't care where my teachers lived, I found a way to get there and pay for it. I drove 16 hours each way from Milwaukee to New Jersey many times for four years of lessons from Tal Farlow. I flew to Los Angeles, rented a car, and drove 4 hours to each lesson with George Van Eps. I drove 2 days to New York for a lesson with Billy Bauer. It was expensive, but those guys are dead now. Last week, I flew to L.A. to study with Jimmy Wyble. Great teachers may not always be available for you. I've driven 23 hours to Toronto from Milwaukee numerous times, just to hear some of the legends play and to meet Lloyd Garber. You can't duplicate the experience of hearing someone live, in the same room. A teacher, unfortunately, without knowing it, can relay poor playing, incorrect teaching and ineffective practice habits to students. Everyone is a student and should consistently put in the many correct practice and performing hours that are needed to become a fine musician. And a fully functioning-healthy-constructive-positive force away from the instrument. For the best learning to happen, both the teacher AND the student need to do what is required.
Joe Leonard and Jack at the NATIONAL GUITAR SUMMER WORKSHOP, 1996 in Connecticut, U.S.
JACK: Fortunately I got to play with, learn from and observe fellow teacher, saxophone virtuoso Berkeley Fudge, a fine role model. He would initiate learning by playing something that you needed to hear to teach yourself something you needed. He might just say one sentence that would start you in a better musical direction. I wasn't interested in what was being taught in schools or the way the information was delivered. My teaching approach became based on what I would like to receive as a student. I had a great college theory instructor, Ted Ashford, who wrote on the board the 1st day of class, "You don't have to learn this stuff, but you will have to compete with someone who did." He would come in to class and ask "what do you want to do today?" putting responsibility on the students for the outcome. He was a jazz pianist, with a doctorate from Julliard, who only taught at my school for two years before quitting to join the rock band FOOD in Los Angeles. He had written the required theory book the class used which had every genre of music in it. I was afraid to miss even one class during the entire year. Each class (5 times per week) was unique and mind blowing. Occasionally he would have his trio and other musicians in to be interviewed and give a concert. John Cage was a guest twice. Every Friday, we were required to come to class with music we had composed and perform it. Underage, I would sneak into bars late at night to hear him play creative music with his band. Everyone in that class turned out to be a powerful musical force. I have always used Ted Ashford and Berkeley Fudge as models. I asked Ted "Mr. Ashford, how can I get gigs?" He said, "Jack, go home and practice". I practiced 15 hours a day for six months. Then gigs started to appear and have continued for the last fifty years. I recently went over the 14,000 gig mark.
MATT: How has technology changed the landscape of music education and where do
you see it headed in the future?
JACK: With the current availability of mass instruction, it's more difficult than ever to create your own voice and even find a good teacher. When Frank Zappa auditioned players, he
looked them in the eye and said, "What do you do that's fantastic?" and "What can you do that no one else can do?" When hiring teachers at Milwaukee Area Technical College, I would also ask those questions. Nine out of ten applicants recoiled and couldn't give an answer. Approximately 1 out of 10 applicants confidently answered those questions. Needless to say,
I wound up with an incredible, fully-functioning faculty that turned out extraordinary musicians. Remember that most of the great music influential legends were self-taught. They didn't have the internet, instruction books, DVDs, teachers or music schools: Charlie Parker, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Tal Farlow, George Van Eps, Lenny Breau, Johnny Winter, Eddie Van Halen, McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, Roy Haynes, Gary Peacock, Jaco Pastorius, Anthony Williams, Keith Jarrett, Sonny Stitt, Thelonius Monk and Wes Montgomery were self taught musicians. They can play one note, and you know exactly who it is. What degrees do these guys have or what school did they attend? You don't know, don't care and it doesn't matter, it's about the learning music. Actually, everyone is mostly self taught because practicing a musical instrument is a solitary activity without a teacher being present. How well do you practice? Do you practice correctly? Do you advance as a result of your practice? When I was chairman of the MATC music department, my challenging goal was to create "one of a kind" musicians within a school environment. When I hear those students now, I know that I've achieved that goal. They all graduated from the same place, but don't sound like each other or any of their teachers. They sound like themselves. In 1972, early in my carreer, numerous audience members would say, "Jack you sound like Wes Montgomery, or like John McLaughlin or like Pat Martino. I responded by not listening to a single guitar player live or on record for the next ten years, which was how long it took for me to start sounding like myself. Now folks say, "Jack, you don't sound like anyone I've ever heard." I still don't listen to many other guitar players these days. I have worked hard to create my individuality and maintain it.
M: How did you get your start as a teacher?
J: I began to play 2-3 gigs per week on upright bass and bass guitar at 12 years old. To supplement my income, I started teaching bass guitar in a music store at age 14. I made more money teaching than having a paper route which was only employment available to a young teenager. One day the store owner said if I taught guitar, piano and accordion, I could recruit more students. Since I didn't have a guitar he sold me a warped neck Harmony archtop without a truss rod for four dollars that the previous owner had painted glossy orange with a paint brush using "Farm Implement Enamel". Ha Ha. Having never played guitar before, I bought Mel Bay's 8 books and practiced a lot.
M: What is the connection between your publications and how you approach a private lesson?
J: Those books were originally written as things for me to practice. When I began studying the guitar I discovered there wasn't advanced material in print to help me get where I wanted to go as a guitarist. In general, I've found that most guitarists aren't very original. (John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Bill Evans, Thelonius Monk, Jackie McLean, Joe Henderson and Charlie Parker didn't have guitarists on their most influential recordings for a reason ). I've worn out 3 copies of 158 Exercises for Saxophone which is what Coltrane used to practice every day. There aren't many books for advanced guitarists because there is more money in creating books for beginners. Classical clarinet etude books are great things to practice because the clarinet is three octaves just like the guitar and not written for guitar. I created my teaching methods to help myself and others to develop an original musical voice. I found it difficult to develop my own unique style when practicing materials which conveyed and cemented the common weaknesses of guitar technique instead of transcending them. Saxophonist Sam Rivers created & practiced his own exercises so he wouldn't sound like Coltrane. If I teach someone, the approach is unique to that student. I help them create their own practice materials and achieve their own vision so they sound like themselves, not me.
M: How has your teaching experience influenced your performing and vice-versa?
J: In 1994, I was at Tal Farlow's house. I told him how frustrated I was with my playing and that I hadn't improved in a long time. He asked what I did. I replied that I taught 60 guitar students per week. He said, "Jack, you're hearing your instrument played poorly 30 hours a week and you are the product of your environment". Since I was head of the MATC music department at the time, I immediately hired a guitar teacher and stopped teaching guitar. Instead, I taught Music Appreciation class which involved listening to and discussing recordings by the greatest creative musicians who ever lived. I scheduled those classes in a different part of the building so that I never heard anyone play the guitar except me. In addition, I exclusively played my 70 compositions on most gigs. (Wayne Shorter, Thelonius Monk, Jackie McLean and Horace Silver did that.) It didn't take long for my playing to improve. Next, I was working with Melvin Rhyne, who had played with Wes Montgomery. He said to me "Music is everything you do." I learned to better choices that were aligned with my music goals.
M: What advice do you have for people who are just starting to teach guitar?
J: I think you have to have a clear vision of what you want to do with your life. Do you want to be "a musician who teaches guitar" or "a guitar teacher who plays music" or "a music teacher who sort of plays a bunch of instruments". There is a big difference between them. During the years when I taught, I vigilantly maintained my identity as a player who is teaching. It resulted in choices which supported my ultimate playing goals. Teachers who play instruments could be better players AND better teachers if they would turn their thinking around the other way. They would become more inspirational teachers.
M: What advice do you have for students when they are looking for a private teacher?
J: FIRST, you need to know what you want to do. SECOND, locate those who have done and are doing what want to do. THIRD, study with as many of them as you can regardless of the time, cost, location and sacrifice. You can always make more money. I didn't care where my teachers lived, I found a way to get there and pay for it. I drove 16 hours each way from Milwaukee to New Jersey many times for four years of lessons from Tal Farlow. I flew to Los Angeles, rented a car, and drove 4 hours to each lesson with George Van Eps. I drove 2 days to New York for a lesson with Billy Bauer. It was expensive, but those guys are dead now. Last week, I flew to L.A. to study with Jimmy Wyble. Great teachers may not always be available for you. I've driven 23 hours to Toronto from Milwaukee numerous times, just to hear some of the legends play and to meet Lloyd Garber. You can't duplicate the experience of hearing someone live, in the same room. A teacher, unfortunately, without knowing it, can relay poor playing, incorrect teaching and ineffective practice habits to students. Everyone is a student and should consistently put in the many correct practice and performing hours that are needed to become a fine musician. And a fully functioning-healthy-constructive-positive force away from the instrument. For the best learning to happen, both the teacher AND the student need to do what is required.
Joe Leonard and Jack at the NATIONAL GUITAR SUMMER WORKSHOP, 1996 in Connecticut, U.S.
